Episode 19 - How to Find Remote Work with Camille Attell
Ever found yourself sitting in a cubicle or stuck in traffic, pondering the allure of remote work? With technology at our fingertips, it’s the age of remote possibilities. But how do you find remote work? Or even better, how do you pivot your current gig into a remote wonderland?
Meet Camille Attell, our guest, and remote work guru, here to unravel the whys and hows of remote work integration. Camille’s got the golden recipe: helping folks like you nail how remote work can align with their life, repurpose skills, and then coach them right into the remote job jackpot.
Camille’s journey, like yours and mine, was rooted in the corporate grind. The ‘Why are we doing this?’ and ‘Do we want to keep doing this for another 20 years?’ epiphany struck, leading her down a path of remote revelation.
Camille and I swap remote tales, and if you’re eyeing the remote horizon, this episode will get you started.
If you’re looking for a specific freebie or tool mentioned in this podcast, you can visit https://melsavage.com/free to access additional free training tools designed to help you become a highly valued leader.
Disclaimer: Some of the content and information mentioned in this episode might no longer be applicable. This includes references to specific links, courses, or programs. As a result, all the links mentioned will now redirect you to our current website. There, you’ll find up-to-date information, resources, and exciting new content to support your journey. We appreciate your understanding and unwavering support.
Happy New Year everyone. Is it still okay to say Happy New Year? I never know. Can I say it for the whole month of January or is it just one week? Anyway, Happy New Year. I hope you’re having a great one so far.
I want to ask you this. Have you ever been sitting in your cubicle and thinking, I wish I could just work from home, or I wish I could have more job flexibility? Maybe you’re someone who’s just always wanted to work remotely and travel around. I know that when I was in my corporate gig. A lot of the time, I would be sitting in traffic, commuting to work thinking, Why am I going there? Basically, I have back-to-back meetings, anyway. I can do it over the phone. Half the meeting is going to be on the phone from regional offices so why do I actually have to be there physically?
For me, I always wanted to work remotely. Ultimately, it was something that I pursued in a different industry. I’ll tell you from time to time, I still take marketing gigs, if it’s the right thing with the right people, but always remotely. That’s what I decided I wanted to do with my life, was to work remotely. Now I have a lifestyle that allows me to travel around a bit. In my case, it’s really about escaping the Canadian winter and going South for a portion of the year.
I live up in a lake community in Canada in the summer and then we go to Hilton Head for some of the winter months, which I really love because winter is tough in Canada at the best of times, and up at a lake house with all of those Arctic winds blowing across the lake and dumping snow on us, not fun. Now at least I don’t have to commute in it anymore but it’s still not super fun. So I love the whole topic of remote work.
Today, I have a special guest. I’m talking to Camille Attell, who is someone that I’ve actually met along my journey of developing an online business. Camille’s specialty is really helping people find remote work. In fact, I’d actually say that her specialty goes beyond that. She really helps people understand, first of all, why they want remote work. So they understand how to fit that into their lifestyles. Why do you want remote work? How do you want to fit remote work into your life?
Then she helps them define how they can repurpose the skills that they have into a remote situation and then really helps them find remote work. She takes it from A to Z. I love this topic. Honestly, I loved my conversation with Camille. I know the whole idea of remote work is a pretty sexy topic but there are also some challenges that come along with working remotely.
Today in this episode, we’re going to be talking about the myths around remote work, the challenges around remote work, how to work with your existing organization to perhaps transition your existing job to a full-time remote gig or a part-time remote gig, and also where you can go to find remote work. We’re going to cover a lot and it’s a really great action-packed, information-packed episode. Let’s get to it. Today’s episode is all about how to find remote work. Let’s get started.
Mel Savage: Welcome Camille, how are you today?
Camille Attell: I’m doing very well. Thanks for having me.
Mel Savage: Thank you for taking the time. We’re recording this close to the holiday season and you just came back from a vacation. So thank you so much for fitting me in.
Camille Attell: Of course, always.
Mel Savage: I know that the listeners are going to love our topic today, which is all about remote working and how to find remote work, whether that’s going out and looking for a job and remote work or how to manage your current job and start to migrate it into more of a remote work environment. Let’s call it that. Would that be fair?
Camille Attell: Definitely. I would add, too. It’s also remote work as a means to an end because that can help you fulfill a type of lifestyle you might be looking for, whether that’s travel or working from home. We’ll dig into that, I’m sure.
Mel Savage: Yes, and you’re doing great work around this. Before we get into talking about this topic, specifically, why don’t you share with the listeners a little bit about how you actually got here? What’s your background and how did you decide that remote work was the thing you wanted to focus on?
Camille Attell: Sure. I spent much like you, actually. I spent 20+ years in corporate America. I don’t know how long you’ve been in but I feel like we have a kinship there. My husband and I spent, probably combined, 50 years in corporate America, really, and so I am a tried and true cubicle dweller and have always reported to management. I’ve either been in middle management or an individual contributor.
My very first job was actually helping people get off of welfare back into the workforce, with job skills training and career development, resume, review, and things like that, all the way up to more traditional corporate training, where I got into more leadership, sales, a lot of stuff around employee empowerment and workforce culture, and everything in between. But always some form of training and development is really my background.
What led me into the remote work world is that, right around 2015, my husband and I just hit a wall with life. Everything was out of alignment. We had some health issues, our house flooded, and we both had changed jobs at our current workplace. We just hit a wall that I think a lot of people hit, which is, what’s the point of all of this? Is this what 20 more years looks like? Are we going to be doing the exact same things 20 years from today? What else is there? And that led us on our own journeys of deciding to walk away from everything.
We cut our jobs, we rented out our house, we got rid of most of our stuff, and we got an RV, and a recreational vehicle and started traveling, living, and working full-time. And that led me to remote work. I’ll just pause there because I’m sure you’ll have more questions. But that’s generally what led me to what I’m doing today. And today, just to put a bow on that, I help other people figure out remote work options that they can do based on their skills and interests, again, so they can live the lifestyle that they desire.
Mel Savage: You know what, that turning point, that tipping point where you think to yourself, do I really want to be doing this 20 years from now, that is the place where so many people are especially, in that 40 to 45-year-old range where you’ve been doing something for a long time, it fit your lifestyle, your family’s grown, your values have changed. And you started thinking about, people call it a midlife crisis. I’m not sure it’s a crisis. I’m not sure it’s even a midlife thing.
I think it’s just a life stage thing, where you get to a point where you like, so what’s next? Do I really want to be doing this and you ask yourself some questions? That’s for me, where a lot of our audience is right now in the corporate world. Do I want to stay with this? How do I make the most of it? How do I find something that’s fulfilling for me? So what made you guys decide RVing was the right thing for you?
Camille Attell: That’s so funny. We had never even been in an RV. Neither of us had even stepped in an RV. We didn’t grow up that way. I know, it’s crazy. But we are both adventurous people in terms of we love to travel. My husband does a lot of backpacking in the Sierras in California. I’ve done some backpacking internationally. So we have the spirit, the travel spirit, but at our ages, we’re like, we’re not going to go stay in hostels in Europe. We’re well past that. I did that in my 20s. It was like, what can we do to combine all of that and yet still be comfortable enough? And RVing just made sense.
At the time, what was so funny about it was that we thought this was super novel, nobody does this. We’re so original and living in an RV, that’s cool. Then I started Googling and looking online and I was like, wow, a lot of people actually do this. Once we got in the RV and started really getting into the community, it’s an entire subculture. There is a massive subculture in America of people living and working from RVs and vans and just real alternative lifestyles. So shocking to us.
Mel Savage: I know this isn’t the focus of the conversation, but I find this so intriguing. What would you say is the main impetus for people to live in this subculture lifestyle?
Camille Attell: There are two main trends. One is really the people in my track. When we reach a certain age, we’re like, no, I really want to do something else. Or there are quite a few retirees who have finally retired, lucky for them, and they’re able to travel now and do all the things they’ve been dreaming about. That’s not us. My husband and I work solidly from our RVs and probably will be for a long time. But there is another track of people who simply are on the edges of society where maybe they’ve struggled to maintain work, or they’ve fallen on hard times. And for that group of folks, it’s really a means to an end. It’s more economical to live that way. So you’ll see, even within the subculture, there are micro-cultures.
Mel Savage: I know that you work a lot with the RVing community to find remote work but talk about really the main focus of your business again.
Camille Attell: I help people who either want to RV, and I do work with folks who want to stay at home or just want more flexible lifestyles, but I help them figure out how to transfer their skills into remote jobs. I’m sure we’ll get into this but there are a lot of options for remote work that people aren’t aware of. A lot of people could just do what they’re doing now, in a remote capacity. They just don’t realize it.
Or for some people, they really do have to either retool a little bit or learn how to transfer their skills and do some different types of work. That’s what I do, I help them figure that out. I primarily help people who are interested in either, what I’ll call traditional work, whether that’s full-time or part-time with an employer, or I’ll help people get into the world of freelancing, which might be new for a lot of people. But freelancing and remote work is a fabulous marriage because there’s so much flexibility and then all the way up to if somebody wants to do an online business. Because again, that fits really well with a remote lifestyle.
Mel Savage: I think it’s going to be refreshing for a lot of people who have thought about this but don’t know how to go about it. There are so many options to actually capitalize on what they already know and implement it into a remote work lifestyle. What do you find is the most common misconception or myth when people are approaching you and thinking, I want to work in a remote lifestyle? What do you think is the thing that they really need to understand that they haven’t understood yet?
Camille Attell: I think the biggest block or myth for people is that they think when they go for a remote job, they’re going to have to take a pay cut. And that is one of the things that stops people. They think about the salary. A lot of people who I work with come from a world of salary. They think about that, and they think, I’m going to have to take a salary cut or a pay cut. That’s just not going to work for me. That may be true for some.
But for a lot of people, that’s not even the case at all. You can make the same amount of money, maybe even more money. There really isn’t any real factual information out there that says, if you go remote, that definitely means you have to take a pay cut. It’s really a choice, ultimately.
Mel Savage: That’s actually really great news for a lot of people because I know there are a lot of people out there who would love to be able to do this. So I can make the same money doing what I was doing before and do it remotely on my own time. Sounds really super sexy and exciting. What is the main challenge for people when they get into this? So let’s say they started looking for remote work and they find it. What do you find people are challenged with the most in that kind of lifestyle?
Camille Attell: It really will depend on the person. I would say a lot of people, if we just take someone who, let’s say, you and I, were so similar in our corporate life. Let’s make the assumption that in corporate life, or even long-term work, we’ll say, you have the structure. You’ve got your day. It starts at a certain time, it ends at a certain time, you report to a certain person, there’s a way you do the work, there’s a culture, etc.
When you go remote, that might all disappear, depending on how you’re working. Are you working alone? Do you have a team? Do you even have a boss? Do you have hours? And that can be a tough transition for some people because they’re just so used to structure and now they don’t have it the way they used to have it before. So that can be a bit of a struggle for some people.
Mel Savage: The structure was never a problem for me because I’m extremely organized and I’m totally a self-motivated, self-starter, who never had a problem with staying focused. The biggest challenges for me when I went remote and started my own business were a few things. First of all, I missed people. Like going to the office and communicating with people. When I was in my corporate job, in my cubicle, all the time, I just wanted to work from home, and there’s some sexiness to it, for sure. But for me, it was the people.
So what I realized is I had to build my own community. Nevermind the people that were working with me on my business, but whether it’s peers out there doing the same thing that I was doing, trying to find groups that I could join and build, not just be in Facebook groups, but actually build connections with people that become part of a mastermind, or people that you connect with and talk to all the time. Even in my own community where I live, actually getting out of my house and really focusing some dedicated effort on building that social network.
When I say social network, I’m talking about a real live human being social network in my community, where I could actually see people because that took more effort than it did before because it was easy. I just went to work and I talked to people. Now I have to make an effort to create those connections than before. I would say the other big thing for me was, the work schedule was easy but I became one of those people who were up top on video. I look like I’m put together but down below is in pajama bottoms.
I really had to focus on my self-care rituals, like, when do I work out? Now I have to actually get to bed early. I don’t really have to. Do I have to brush my hair today? All those things went out the window at first. I was like, stop eating peanut butter out of the jar, you need to get dressed, brush your teeth, and get to your desk. Those were the kinds of structure things that I started to struggle with.
Camille Attell: 100%. I mean, we could do another whole episode just on self-care. Because I do think that that is another thing that everything really changes. I mean, it is just how you live changes, and that impacts so many aspects of your life, but it’s all doable. That’s the big takeaway. You just explained what you do now, which means you’ve come through the other side, and it’s all very doable. It can all lead to just new ways of appreciating your lifestyle and what you have and the ability that you get to eat peanut butter out of the jar or not. If you feel like it, you can wear pajamas or not. I mean, it’s all up to you. I never had those choices before so I think that’s cool.
Mel Savage: That’s the thing, too. When you know what you’re getting into, which is great that we’re having this conversation, you can talk about those things, you can decide how you want to manage them, and then you have choices. It was more like, I didn’t realize this was going to happen, what am I going to do about it now? Which is okay. And to your point, as long as you’re conscious of it and decide what you want it to be, you can move towards whatever you want to get to.
I want to talk about two different ways forward. I want to talk about the options for remote work, how to find remote work, all of that. And then I want to talk a lot about one of the things that corporate people struggle with a lot. I know we’ve struggled with this at McDonald’s, depending on the boss you had. Can you transition some of your work to be remote? Maybe you can have the best of both worlds or maybe you want to transition your existing job to be completely remote. That’s always a challenge for some people or some organizations.
So talking about it from the context of not only the person but as a manager, how can you work with your people to allow them to do that? There was a lot there that we wanted to cover but I thought we could start with something you mentioned which was, what are some options for people to get started on this when they’re trying to figure out what their transferable skills are?
Camille Attell: I think you bring up a good point that if you have a job already, and it’s location-based, you go to an office or you report in, one of the best things you can do, especially if you like that job and it offers you the benefits that you want is to try to make that remote, if you can. This is one of the things I work with my folks on in my programs, how can we make the best case to your company about you going remote? It should be thought of as a process.
A lot of people will come to me and say, I already tried that. I already asked, and they said no. That’s not the way to approach it. What you want to do is you want to research your company’s culture and where are they in their curve of remote workers. Are there people who already are remote? There’s a precedent there, we can leverage that or how can you prove to your manager that working remotely will benefit them, or the company? It can save them money, it can make you more productive, perhaps if you stepped into it, let’s try working from home twice a month and let’s test it. There are just so many ways to come at it.
But off the top of my head, and in this short podcast, the bottom line is, really think of this as a process where you’re going to find the right leverage point. And you’re going to test it over, say, a three or six-month period, to get your company really comfortable with you making this move. It’s not going to be like, one day you walk in your manager and you’re like, Hey, I got a great review. I’d like to work remotely. Let’s start this next Friday. It doesn’t really work like that. But no doesn’t always mean no, no just means not right now. So we have to figure out a way to make it work for everyone involved.
Mel Savage: I think no doesn’t always mean no. No means I don’t know. Sometimes, I don’t know how to help you with this. So bring solutions and it’s just like with anything else. You’re always going to take small steps. You don’t start a running regimen by running 5k if you’ve never run before. You start by walking and running. This is the walk-before-you-run type of thing. I would think, too, in that process, managing expectations along the way, I would think would help a lot. So let’s say, you get a win, your manager allows you to work from home once a week or twice a month, or whatever it is, and not just leave it out there for everyone to determine if that worked or didn’t.
Coming back and saying, how did that work? On Friday, I took a day off. I think we got these done. How did that feel for you? What worked and what didn’t work? And keeping it top of mind so that when the first thing that goes wrong one time they couldn’t find you, and they needed you all of a sudden, they’re thinking, This isn’t working for me. I would think about managing expectations. How have you found that with your clients?
Camille Attell: I think that’s a really great point and even even taking it a step further. Because I think what you’re talking about would be keeping the lines of communication open. And then taking that a step further, is picking some measurables, things you can really measure objectively. It’s not just how your manager feels, which is fine but, how am I showing up for the job requirements? So if you need me to be online between the hours of eight and 11, on my messenger app, or whatever, then let’s measure that. If you need me to resolve customer service issues at x percent, how did I do with that while working remotely? Coming up with really tangible measures that are very objective is the real key because then you can’t really argue about the feelings as much.
Mel Savage: That’s a really great point, keeping it logic-based. Because sometimes your boss is going to feel uncomfortable because they’re just not comfortable with that lack of control, or that visual cue of seeing you being able to run down into your office. But the other thing I would say, too, is with anything, for the listeners out there is, setting expectations, whether they’re measurable expectations or follow-up expectations, all those things, they will evolve as you go, as you both get smarter, and new challenges come up with the process.
Don’t be afraid to revisit those expectations because you both don’t know what you don’t know, as you’re making this journey. So keeping that line of communication open. Let’s say, I tried it with my boss, I’ve done all this stuff, and it’s not working out with them. What are my options?
Camille Attell: That happens, unfortunately. Sometimes it’s the best gift, though, that people didn’t know, was a gift at the time. Because we get so secure and we get so comfortable. You mentioned this earlier and I’m a big believer in this work identity. You get so caught up in your own work identity, that the idea of leaving, is very scary and uncomfortable. When your boss says, or your company says, no, it’s not going to work, you’re forced to make a decision. Am I going to choose comfort and security? Or am I going to choose this next phase of life that really excites me and scares me a little bit, but I know is like my destiny?
Then you’re on a new journey, which is now what am I going to find that’s going to support my life, my new lifestyle goals. So that can take you on finding a new remote job and that is a whole different process that, I’m sure we can dig into. But I think the very first thing you’ve got to do is figure out what kind of lifestyle you even want to live in the first place. That’s where I come in. Are you going to travel full-time and live in an RV? Are you going to be nomadic? Are you just going to work from home? Do you just want part-time flexible hours?
You have to figure out what is going to work for you from a lifestyle perspective, and a financial perspective. That’s really important that you figure, at least those two things out, and that is the starting point that will then put you on the journey for finding the right remote income opportunities for you.
Mel Savage: I think that’s great. I think having that vision and understanding of the life you want to live is the first step for any type of career management. Your career is a part of your life, it’s not a separate thing. So it needs to, from a hierarchical standpoint, ladder up to how you want to live your life. Your life is a higher order, that’s to say, so you really want to make sure that you understand what you need out of your career.
What are the things from a personality standpoint, I need interaction with people. I’m not a crazy extrovert. I’m actually almost 50/50, introvert/extrovert. But I do need that interaction with people. What are those things I need to be able to brainstorm with others to really get my thoughts focused? What are the things that I need to be able to be the best version of me that really feeds me and that could come through your values or strengths? There are lots of different ways.
Camille Attell: I think that’s actually a good reminder because a lot of people think, you said this earlier. Oh, I want to work remotely, that’s so sexy. That’s wow. All this freedom of flexibility sounds nice. And for a lot of people, it’s perfect. But I have students in my course, who say they want that, and then they do it. Then they’re like, oh, wow, that was actually really lonely and isolating. What I really need is a little bit of both. I need a mix. I just had a student, find a job that’s just a perfect fit for him, which is two days a week, he goes into the office, and the other three days a week, he can work from wherever he wants.
Now, that’s not great if you want to travel full-time, because you got to go into the office. But he figured out he doesn’t want to travel full-time. What he wanted was just a more flexible lifestyle. He wanted to be with people when he wanted to be with people. Now he got the best of both worlds.
Mel Savage: Spending that time to figure it out is so important. I always say this, I say this, I feel like every podcast or every moment I can, when it comes to spending the money that we make, we do our homework. We do our homework when we go on vacation, or we buy a house, or the next time we buy a smartphone. We’re doing our homework on those luxury items.
So when it comes to spending our money, we do our homework, but when it comes to making it, we don’t always do our homework. And the homework here is really understanding who you are and what you want so that you can help fit your next career move into that. It’s so important. I love that. I would like to spend a few minutes talking about, if I am going to look for remote work, what are the things that you would suggest?
Camille Attell: It’s a Venn diagram of your skills, your interests, and what the market wants. It’s a process of going through that. What are your current skills? what do you like to do, and what does the market need from you? That’s a really good starting point because you may already have the skills that, as we said earlier, you could transfer into jobs that are there. Or you might find that you need to retool or upskill a little bit. In my case, I had to upskill.
As I mentioned, I come from the world of training and development. So I had a lot of stuff around corporate training and writing programs, and employee development and all that kind of stuff that you do in HR and organization development. But then I started blogging, and I thought, Oh, well, hey, I used to write training programs. Sure, I could transfer that into blogging. That’s true. And then there’s a whole lot of other stuff I really needed to learn to be an effective blogger to where I could get hired or freelance blogging. So I had to do a little bit more education around that.
I think there is something that people in my age range, I’m going to be 47 by the time, close to when this podcast airs. People who are going to be 47, 50s, even my students that get into their 60s are like, really, I don’t want to go back to school, or I need more education. And it really isn’t that. I’m not saying you have to go back to school and get some new degree because there are just so many ways to learn out there. You can just learn a very specific skill. It’s really starting with your current skills, looking at what you like to do, and then looking into the job market.
There are a million platforms. You can do that on some of the popular ones where you can find remote jobs. Things like FlexJobs, Indeed, Virtual Vocations, and even Upwork. There are so many, just to see what’s out there and know if your skills align or if you need to do a little bit of upskilling to get yourself over the hump to be a bit more qualified for some of the jobs out there. But I think people would be surprised that there are a lot of remote jobs at all kinds of levels. So I think there’s a remote job for everyone if you can be a little creative and open-minded about what’s what’s out there.
Mel Savage: That is great. I love the idea of that Venn diagram and really taking a look at how you can optimize what you already know. It’s not always about upskilling, it might be just tweaking a few. It doesn’t mean you have to go back and get a four-year degree. Take it one step at a time.
I think that the other key thing here, too, is just because you’ve decided you’ve understood now that you can’t turn your existing gig into a remote work opportunity, just start slowly and start investigating. Start looking at what’s out there. Start building your plan. You don’t have to quit your job tomorrow so this is a great opportunity for you to take the time when you’re already working somewhere to find the right situation for you.
You mentioned a few places like FlexJobs, etc., that people can go to. A lot of people in existing jobs tend to think LinkedIn is the right thing to do for remote work. What’s your perspective on that? What would you say is the difference between LinkedIn and some of these other sites that are out there?
Camille Attell: I actually think LinkedIn is a really great platform. You network on LinkedIn and you build your communities there. Just because you’re looking for a remote job doesn’t mean somehow, LinkedIn isn’t a good fit. You can find a remote job through LinkedIn, just like any other platform. I actually think LinkedIn is something I neglected for far too long. You’ll probably relate to this. I think this is changing, but a lot of people felt like LinkedIn was just for corporate people. That’s just what I do for corporate.
LinkedIn is just a very robust, almost like a social media/career platform on steroids. You can write and do so much with it. You can blog there, you can put your work there, you can network. It’s very powerful to find a remote job, but you’re not just looking through a list of jobs, you have to do a little bit more work to work your network. But that’s the best way to find a job, anyway.
Mel Savage: After our pre-podcast talk, I just went in there and I was looking for jobs and remote work. I even put a job alert in there for remote work, and it doesn’t send me the right stuff. I’m like, I don’t know, this isn’t working for me. But I think, to your point, like networking and understanding, what jobs come up, unless you have a super secret skill that I don’t know of that you want to share with the group. I find that just searching for remote jobs doesn’t seem to work.
Camille Attell: Searching for remote jobs only really works for me. I’m saying this based on my experience, so maybe someone else has a super secret thing, I don’t know. What I do know about other platforms? Let’s take FlexJobs and Virtual Vocations. These cater to remote jobs. However, you don’t just go in there and type the word remote job, because that’s just not a very good search. So you would want to do something called a Boolean search. I don’t know if you’re familiar with that. I’ll explain it a little bit. That is using very specific keywords to surface the jobs you’re looking for.
I’ll take my current student I just mentioned, who landed, this job. He did it. He landed a training specialist job. Let me back up and tell you his story. He was a Director of Learning in his corporate life. And when we worked together, I said, Do you want to stay a Director of Learning? Are you open? He’s like, I’m really open. I don’t need to be a director. I can do all kinds of training jobs. I’m willing to do them because I don’t need to be at that level anymore.
So we actually made three resumes for him, which is another tip. You want a specific resume for a specific job. I know you teach that, too. What we did is, we took all the skills that he had, and we made them more specific to training specialists. So he was already better aligned with the jobs that he was willing to take. Then you go in, and you search on things like ‘training specialist’, and then maybe you add something like, ‘and remote’, or ‘training specialist and dispersed team’, which is code for remote, or ‘training specialist and anywhere.’ There are ways to do these searches. I don’t know if that works on LinkedIn or not, because I’ve never really gotten to use that.
Mel Savage: I know Sales Navigator can do the Boolean searches. I will do a link to just a generic how-to on Boolean searches. I’ll find something online. But using those ads, plus, brackets, and all those kinds of things can help narrow down your field.
Camille Attell: Yes, exactly. That’s how he found his job. He just really got very targeted and very focused on using the right keywords in his resume and in his searches and all that kind of stuff.
Mel Savage: A lot of these other things, too, with FlexJobs and some of these other sites, it’s almost like you’re posting your resume out there like you would on Monster or on Indeed or something like that so people can find you, plus you finding them. Is there anything else special about those sites that people should be aware of?
Camille Attell: Yes. Let me give you a rundown of general remote work sites. With sites like FlexJobs and Virtual Vocations, you will pay a monthly fee, or annually or whatever, to get access to more jobs and get access to better-screened jobs, because one of the things that scares people is scams, and they are out there. One of my family members almost got scammed, but I know how to spot them so that didn’t happen. Some of my students have almost gotten scammed. One did get scammed, but he didn’t watch the lesson on how not to get scammed so that’s why.
On some of the sites, you pay a fee, but you get what you pay for. You’re getting better jobs that are screened, the scams are fewer, and you get vetted companies, brand name companies. So there’s just a whole ecosystem that better serves up the jobs for you. On the total flip side of that is something like Craigslist, which a lot of people don’t think about for remote jobs, but is a fantastic place to find remote jobs. But it comes with a downside, which is there’s a lot more scams there.
You have to do a bit more sifting. It’s going to take you longer, but it’s free. There’s a lot out there. You could set it up so you can have a process where every day you’re checking and you’ve got everything dialed in on Craigslist. You can do that with almost all of these sites. But what I would tell people is don’t go on a million sites. Really pick a couple that you feel. I think everyone should always be on LinkedIn. 100%, let’s start there.
Then maybe you get you pick up one membership on a site like Virtual Vocations where you at least are getting served up remote jobs, and then maybe you’re on a free site like Craigslist, where you just get access to whatever is out there. But at least you got two to three you’re working. But what a lot of people will do is they make the mistake of just being everywhere all the time and that is very hard to maintain. Just like it’s very hard to maintain a million social media channels.
Mel Savage: I am so over Instagram. Sorry, people. For business, I can’t just can’t do it anymore.
Camille Attell: I’m with you, that’s so funny. Instagram’s great, but that’s a whole other conversation for another day for businesses.
Mel Savage: Yes, exactly. For some businesses, maybe. Not mine.
Camille Attell: Yes, not mine. Not right now.
Mel Savage: You said scam. I know a lot of people are afraid of scams. You don’t have to say how to avoid scams if that’s your proprietary process but, at least scams like, a waste of my time or scams where people are trying to steal my money. Don’t give your credit cards to people, like that kind of stuff.
Camille Attell: I’m not going to make it secret. You don’t have to buy my course, I’m just going to tell you the two easiest ways to avoid scams: Don’t pay for anything, and I’ll clarify that in a minute. And don’t give away your personal information.
Mel Savage: Never do that online.
Camille Attell: Never do that online. This has nothing to do with jobs, just general. Let me clarify when I say, don’t pay for things. Here’s an example of when my family member almost got scammed. It happened on Upwork through a messenger bot. Basically, somebody comes on and they’re like, Hi, I see you’re looking for a job. We have a job. It’s amazing. Send us $50 or whatever it is and we’re going to send you the packet of information.
First of all, it looks fishy. It feels fishy. And if it feels fishy, it’s probably fishy. You shouldn’t have to send money to learn about a job. Or they’ll suck you in with like, send me your social security number so we can set up a pin, and then send us a check. Then we’re going to verify or authorize to send you all the equipment you need, like your computer and your printer. It all feels weird. It is weird, don’t do that. Just go check a site like Glassdoor where you can verify the company, get the name of the company, the email address of the person, and their fax number. If they won’t give you those three things, it’s probably a scam.
Mel Savage: The other thing I do, too, is whenever something smells fishy, my antennas go up. The first thing I do is google that. Is this a scam? Then usually it comes out. Don’t Don’t do this. But I agree with you. If they don’t give you their fax number, a callback number, an address, and all that kind of stuff, then don’t do it.
Camille Attell: That’s the easiest way. In my course, what I do is a step further, as I just show examples. I bring up scam jobs so people see what they look like. They’re pretty easy to spot. They have missing information and just red flags.
Mel Savage: They give us a lot of legit things out there, you don’t need to pay somebody to get information. Just as a rule.
Camille Attell: Let me caveat this because this will come up sometime. Like you and I, we sell digital services, courses, membership sites, and things like that, and there are a lot of people who do that. That is different. Because I was on a webinar once and I was talking about, don’t buy things, don’t pay for things. Then I go to sell a course and someone’s like, you just said, don’t buy things.
But there is a difference. We are selling expert knowledge that helps people learn something that they really need to learn to do something and sometimes we will save them time, get them in a better position help them make more money, or save them from a scam or whatever. And that is a very distinct difference. I just want to make that really clear to people listening that that is a very different kind of thing. Just like if you go to buy something on Amazon or you buy something through a service you pay for, maybe you pay for some monthly service or whatever. That’s a very different thing than somebody asking you to send them some money so they can send you something.
Mel Savage: That seems like common sense, but it’s good to know. Even when you’re going to find a coach, I always say just to investigate, go online, read about the person, read about the company, read about whatever it is. Read about it, and do your research.
Like I said, when it comes to making money, do your research. It’s the most important piece of the whole money thing, doing your research upfront of the whole career thing. I want to talk about where people can find you online. But first, I want to ask you, what’s one big piece of advice that you would give people who are looking for remote work? Just the one thing that you want them to know.
Camille Attell: I think the biggest piece of advice is that don’t underestimate yourself. If I want to flip that into more of a positive statement, it’s really the value that you bring to the table. Not everyone, but a lot of people fall into the trap of undervaluing themselves.
Here are some examples of what that sounds like. People say, why would anyone hire me when there are 10 other people who do what I do? I’m not unique. You hear that a lot. Or why am I so special? There are so many other people who have better skills than me. Or people who are in their late 40s and beyond start to feel a little bit aged out, like, I don’t know the new fandangled technologies, or whatever. We all have intrinsic value. People tend to mix up their self-worth and the value they give to an employer. And they’re very different.
Some days, I feel super crappy and I don’t feel great about myself or whatever. That has nothing to do with the value that I can deliver to a client or an employer. Very separate. You really have to just focus on what you bring to the table. You have value. This is why my free email series can help people because it’ll help you figure out what your value is, what skills you have, and how you impact other people, employers, clients, etc. Just keep focusing on the value you bring and that will help move you through the process and not get stuck.
Mel Savage: I love it. That’s so important. It’s so important to really value yourself. If I could add something, don’t assume what people are going to do. This is the kind of job that can never go remote. No one’s going to hire me remotely when someone can come into the office. Don’t assume those things. You don’t know everything. This is a big world and there’s always someone looking for something specific.
I can’t tell you how many times I worked for McDonald’s marketing. People want to work for that. Do you know how hard it is sometimes to find people to do certain things? I mean, everyone’s looking for someone who is hardworking, smart, dedicated, delivering, and accountable. If you’re those things, you can find work.
Camille Attell: It’s so true. If I can riff off that a little bit, I am amazed. It’s hard for me to find good people, not because they’re not good. They probably are good. But they don’t do simple things like follow through. They tell me they’re going to email me in a week with more information and they don’t. Or they don’t know how to sell me on their value. So I ended up feeling like I have to work harder to get them on my team, then they’re working and that’s a bad indicator. It’s like if you can just do some simple things like, follow through, tell people why you can help them, send the email when you said you would, and follow up, you are lightyears ahead of the 10 people behind you.
Mel Savage: That’s right. Just show up and do the work. On top of that, the cherry on top is how smart you are. Everyone has those unique gifts, you can add value to any company. So you talked a little bit about how to get your free course. Just say again, how do people find you online on your website, or if you have any kind of content that you want people to absorb? I know people are going to want to check you out.
Camille Attell: Sure. My current website is morethanawheelin, just like the Boston song, More Than a Feeling.
Mel Savage: No apostrophe, just wheelin. No G.
Camille Attell: Just wheelin because we were being cute. In hindsight, that just makes the URL very difficult. It’s an RV site, meaning, like you mentioned at the beginning of the episode, I do attract people who want to RV but there’s a lot of just remote work. In fact, I have a category on there just called remote work. So people click on that and get all kinds of great stuff. As I said, on the homepage is the Learn More button, that’ll lead right into the free email course. People can peruse the site for remote work. They can also find RVing if they’re interested in RVing and travel.
One thing I talk about that’s different than my peers in the RV world is, I also talk about something called the emotional journey. My background is in counseling. I have my Master’s in Counseling, and I’m really big on the emotional journey that people go through when they go through transitions. Transitioning to remote work is a transition. Getting into RVing or traveling full-time is a transition. When your children leave the house, that’s a transition. Career changes. I love that stuff. So I do a bit of the emotional journey if people are into that kind of stuff, change curve, and identity loss. Deep stuff. I get into deep stuff.
Mel Savage: I always say this, success in anything is 80% mindset. If Tony Robbins says it all the time, I’m sure it’s not his thing. Someone else smart said that too. It is the mindset. Whenever your mind is engaged and you’re focused, that’s when you do your best work so getting your mind prepared and focused for the journey of this transition. Don’t underestimate the value of that. All it takes is a little bit of practice. It sounds scary and massive, but it’s not. It’s just a little bit of tweaking every day to how you think about it.
This has been so great. I know people are going to love this episode. I love this episode. I’m going to check out those sites. Thank you so much for spending time with us today and sharing your wisdom.
Camille Attell: Always. I always love chatting with you. We have really good juicy, deep talk so I can’t wait for the next one.
So much good stuff there. I loved talking to Camille. I loved this conversation, there was just so much great information packed into this episode, I just want to summarize a few things for for you here at the end. First of all, the job sites she talked about, Indeed, FlexJobs, Virtual Vocations, LinkedIn, and Craigslist, and finding the right combination of those that work for you. All of those links will be in the show notes at thecareerreset.com/19.
She talked about the Boolean search. So I’m going to give you a one-on-one that can link to an infographic that’s going to start you off in a Boolean search if you’ve never done it before. Some of the words she talked about using in your Boolean search would be the job title you’re looking for, or this major skill set that you specialize in, plus the word remote or dispersed team or anywhere. Those are all things that you want to look at.
Plus, when you go to the show notes, you have the links to Camille herself at morethanawheelin.com and you want to make sure that you try out her free course. If you’re someone who’s looking for remote work, it’s totally worth the time. There’s so much good content in her free course.
Thank you so much. I hope you enjoyed this episode. Let me know what you think about it. Send me some feedback, either in the comments on the show notes or just send me an email. I want to hear about it. I want to hear what helped you. I want to know what was missing so that we can do it better next time. That’s the whole point so send me your feedback. I’d love to hear it.
Don’t forget that you can always subscribe to the podcast at melsavage.com/podcast, and I’ll talk to you next week. Bye for now.